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Comment on The Church of England, the Nation and National Identity by rfpl4

rfpl4 — Thu, 03 May 2012 13:50:23 +0000

Thanks very much for all these valuable observations. Certaintly the Church’s engagement with St. Patrick’s day should come as no surprise, though in the colonial context what is interesting is the extent to which the day steadily becomes co-opted by Irish Catholics in the 1860s and beyond (Rosalyn Trigger has written an article called ‘Irish Politics on Parade’ in Histoire Sociale on this). The Anglican involvement in Canada seems, as far as I am aware, to have dwindled in the context of the Fenian anxieties in the 1860s.

You are right to be sceptical of the extent to which the Church of England is representative of Englishness: this position has been untenable since at least the 17th century! You are also right to point out that all the major denominations have made efforts to cultivate a relationship with national identity, and the way the Methodists, Presbyterians and others did this in the ‘British World’ overseas would make a very interesting research project. Still, the central issue that concerns me is how an institution – the Church of England – which was becoming an increasing multi-cultural and multi-ethnic organisation in the nineteenth century (through worldwide mission) still attempted to maintain an English identity. It seems to be that the bulk of research has been on telling the story of how religions are adapted and take on new identities as they spread overseas; the question of how they maintained links with metropolitan identities has tended, I feel, to be overlooked. Your comments will help me think through these thorny questions!

The point you make about the Church and the sense of national unity is also valid: the 19th-century Church always saw itself as being a source of imperial unity. It would provide the religion and culture that would knit together diverse expatriate communities. This confident stance was not damaged by the transformation of the Church from a state church to a independent, voluntary organisation during the course of the century.

Comment on How British do you feel? by HistoryMick

HistoryMick — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:47:28 +0000

I am utterly proud to be both English and British – with a very slight preference for being ‘English’, I think. I have a deep interest in the history of the North-East of England and, as a native of Newcastle, am well aware of my city’s awkward historical relationship with the Scots – but I don’t have any negative vibes about any of the Celtic nations. I am very English when it comes to sporting clashes with the other home nations, but am equally as proud of what we have all achieved together as ‘the UK’. I have no real problem with the Scots, Welsh and Irish going their own way – nothing can take away what we’ve achieved together these past few hundred years.

Comment on Celebrating Guy Fawkes Night – A Family Tradition by HistoryMick

HistoryMick — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:34:36 +0000

Oh, yes, Bonfire Night was an absolutely massive occasion for us on 1970s Tyneside. It was looked forward to with great anticipation for weeks beforehand. Second only to Christmas Day for excitement. ‘Penny for the Guy’ was a big deal, too – but most of my pre-Bonfire Night activity was spent begging round the doors asking for wood (or ‘Bonner Wood’ as we called it). Great competition between rival gangs for having the biggest and best bonfire – with much pilfering of wood between us! Almost everyone in those days had their own bonfires – now this is a rarity. All this activity is now pretty much gone, with Hallowe’en’s ‘trick or treating’ the big deal (non-existent in the ’70s where I lived). Personally, as a kid, I was not really aware of the anti-Catholic element at all.

Comment on The Church of England, the Nation and National Identity by MickeyCool31

MickeyCool31 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:39:14 +0000

I suppose in terms of culture people throughout the British Isles share a similar way of life and so differences abroad maybe seen as less

Comment on The Church of England, the Nation and National Identity by MickeyCool31

MickeyCool31 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:35:24 +0000

Its probably because the church of england took over from the old catholic church of england and so took all its traditions and customs with it. But in a sense even the old catholic church of england was kind of a semi independent catholic church

Comment on The Church of England, the Nation and National Identity by MickeyCool31

MickeyCool31 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 12:31:43 +0000

It doesn’t necessarily surprise me that the church embraced St Patrick as St Patrick is a British Isles Saint rather than just an Irish one. There were I suppose many examples of the church trying to be more wider. The Puritans in the 17th century tried to rid Hallowean and other similar pagan festivals, yet it seems it was the Church of England that tried to embrace different groups more. These festivals were re-instated as important cultural festivals of the nation and any groups that tried to cause division was often hurried abroad. Even so even puritans carried on English traditions in places such as America. I mean I am Anglo-Catholic but wouldn’t even think of the C of E as a enemy, I think it has to do more with the importance and togetherness of the Nation rather than any one religious group. I don’t know if those Irish celebrate St Patrick were Loyalists or not, but if they were, they may of not seen the C of E as an enemy rather than a similar loyalist organisation as many Irish were protestant and even catholic and loyalist. St Patrick is celebrated in Anglican churches too and there is a misconception he is simply a nationalist catholic ethnic irish idea. I think it probably goes back to when the nation was more important than any one faction, in the Middle Ages this is seen in civil wars which were often avoided as the leaders though more of the collectiveness of the nation. Even now english methodists, catholics, anglicans (which is quite a broad church) and others don’t attack each other or are divided as most celebrate the same national festivals and traditions in an english context and so conflict would be pointless. I think many outside observers probably don’t understand this. I wouldn’t see the church of England representing Englishness per se but it is an important part of Englishness but all English parish churches even non C of E would be seen as English as all follow national sentiment and cultural sensitivities. I am not sure but it may have been the church that also tried to lessen religious differences between catholics and protestants and difuse tension. I think people felt threatened by catholics from abroad taking over and threatened England as a nation and some English catholics who supported them rather than necessarily hating their fellow countryman’s religious practices and were more and were suspicious of some catholics in England. I think many speaking of catholics and protestants probably are seeing it through the eyes of other countries like France, Ireland etc rather than in an English context.

I agree in the occupy movement the church should have stood up more for its principles.

Comment on When it Wasn’t ‘Cool’ to be English in America: The Trent Affair, 1861-62 by David Gleeson

David Gleeson — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 10:22:23 +0000

In 1807 Britain abolished the transatlantic slave trade (followed by the U.S. in 1808 well before War of 1812) not slavery itself. A somewhat effective enforcement of the ban did not happen until 1820. Slavery in the colonies (except some controlled by the East India Company) was abolished in 1833/34. Thus, the U.S. was behind the U.K. in this matter. Works by Kenneth Morgan and Seymour Drescher are the best on the subject. If you’re interested in the end of the trade and the ambiguities surrounding it, later this year myself and Simon Lewis are editing a collection of essays (including one by me on attempts to repeal the ban in thh U.S. in the 1850s) entitled Ambiguous Anniversary: A Bicentennial Inquiry into the Transatlantic Slave Trade Bans to be published in the Carolina Lowcountry Atlantic World Series at the University of South Carolina Press. Should appear here soon! http://www.sc.edu/uscpress/claw.html

Best,

David

Comment on When it Wasn’t ‘Cool’ to be English in America: The Trent Affair, 1861-62 by garryej

garryej — Fri, 13 Jan 2012 17:59:55 +0000

When I was working for the National Archives of Scotland in 2007, we were distributing (not publishing) a pamphlet celebrating 200 years of the end of slavery in the UK. According to this “official” govt. document (!) slavery in the British Commonwealth officially ended in 1807. I was led to believe this contributed to the War of 1812 – the interception of US slave ships. Please correct me if I’m wrong!

Comment on Celebrating Guy Fawkes Night – A Family Tradition by MickeyCool31

MickeyCool31 — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:52:08 +0000

English Catholics even tied to Rome was against people who threatened England, English Catholics are not necessarily in agreement with Catholics elsewhere, England as the nation is important regardless of the religious practices which are quite private (most religious English follow their own spiritual path and keep religion private – possible unlike other countries). This maybe because England is culturally different and religion has never interferred as much in social life.

Comment on Celebrating Guy Fawkes Night – A Family Tradition by MickeyCool31

MickeyCool31 — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:45:46 +0000

It may seem strange but Many English Catholics were seen as possibly threatening England National Security and the stability of the Nation, although most English Catholics probably didn’t even like France or Spain and so England for them came first. As a Catholic this is totally understandable. Without Guy Fawkes they might not have even been persecuted. Also there was probably influence from catholics from other countries who were trying to use Catholicism to influence people in England, but many of the English Catholics saw this as an attack on England itself. Even today I do notice it by Catholics from other countries thinking they speak for English Catholics which I feel is wrong as they don’t understand English Catholics have the same same cultural traditions as all English people religious or not. Infact many Catholics now are not necessarily Papal followers. All this might help to explain the trouble at the time in a wider historical context, although many just assume Guy Fawkes Day is anti-Catholic. They are burning Guy Fawkes and the Pope not necessarily symbols of Catholic belief. I am Anglo-Catholic which means I follow Catholic teachings, traditions, Virgin Mary etc etc without following what the Pope says in Rome.